As Sessions Recuses Himself From Campaign Investigation, Questions Remain Over Trump-Russia Ties

Attorney General Jeff Sessions has recused himself from any investigation into last year’s presidential campaign, following reports he met twice with Russia’s ambassador to the U.S. at a time when he was serving as both a senator and a campaign surrogate for Donald Trump. The revelation directly contradicts Sessions’ sworn testimony to Congress in January that he did not meet with any Russian officials in the run-up to November’s election. On Thursday, Sessions called charges he lied under oath "totally false" and said he failed to mention the meetings with Ambassador Sergey Kislyak because the two did not discuss the campaign. Meanwhile on Thursday The New York Times revealed that Flynn and Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner held a meeting at Trump Tower with the Russian ambassador ahead of the presidential inauguration. "Do those relationships risk posing undue influence on him going forward, possibly, bribery or some kind of coercion on policy?" asks Marcy Wheeler, an independent journalist who covers national security and civil liberties at EmptyWheel.net. AMY GOODMAN: Attorney General Jeff Sessions has recused himself from any investigation into last year’s presidential campaign following reports he met twice with Russia’s ambassador to the U.S. at a time when he was serving as both a Senator and a campaign surrogate for Donald Trump. The revelation directly contradicts Sessions’ sworn testimony to Congress in January that he did not meet with any Russian officials in the run-up to November’s election. On Thursday, Sessions called charges he lied under oath totally false and said he failed to mention the meetings with Ambassador Sergey Kislyak because the two did not discuss the campaign. ATT. GEN. JEFF SESSIONS: I was taken aback a little bit about this brand-new information, this allegation that surrogates — and I have been called a surrogate for Donald Trump — have been meeting continuously with Russian officials and that’s what I — struck me very hard and that is what I focused my answer on. And in retrospect, if — I should have slowed down and said but I did meet one Russian official a couple of times. That would be the ambassador. Thank you all take care. AMY GOODMAN: On Thursday night, Fox News host Tucker Carlson interviewed Jeff Sessions. ATT. GEN. JEFF SESSIONS: I think I’ve performed exactly correctly for an Attorney General of the United States. TUCKER CARLSON: Now, you were foreign-policy adviser, in fact you are the chairman, I think, of the foreign-policy advisers, to now President Trump. In that capacity, do you remember conversations you had as a campaign about Russia and was there any — did you have any belief that they were putting their thumb on the scale, rooting for President Trump over Hillary Clinton? What were your conversations about Russia? ATT. GEN. JEFF SESSIONS: I never had any conversations about — with the Russians about this campaign and putting them — assisting in the campaign or anything like that. I went out and spoke and I campaigned for Trump, but I was not involved in anything like that you can be sure. TUCKER CARLSON: But, did the campaign — I guess my question is, did the campaign believe that the Russian government, the Putin government, favored Trump over Clinton in this race? ATT. GEN. JEFF SESSIONS: I have never been told that. That I — I’ve never been told that. TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think they did? TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t have any idea, Tucker. You have to ask them. AMY GOODMAN: Many Democratic lawmakers are still calling for Attorney General Jeff Sessions to resign, but President Trump has said the Attorney General has been the victim of a "total witch hunt." Sessions recusal comes less than three weeks after Trump’s National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn, resigned after it was revealed he had discussed sanctions in a call on December 29 with the Russian ambassador, then lied to Vice President Mike Pence and other top White House officials about it. Meanwhile, on Thursday, The New York Times revealed that Flynn and Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner, held a meeting at Trump tower with the Russian ambassador ahead of the presidential inauguration. We’re joined now by Marcy Wheeler, an independent journalist who covers national security and civil liberties. She runs the website EmptyWheel.net. Marcy, it’s great to have you back with us. Can you talk about what you think is most significant in this whirlwind of allegations and now a recusal from Attorney General Jeff sessions? MARCY WHEELER: As people think about it, it’s helpful to think about the three things that we should be concerned about with Russia and Donald Trump. And the first is whether or not anybody on his campaign was involved in the hack of Hillary Clinton, whether or not they were kind of operating with the Russians. The second one is whether we know — and Trump was very open about his opening to Russia, his willingness to negotiate with Russia. The question is whether there was any kind of quid pro quo, whether there was any kind of inappropriate influence to get that outcome. And then the third is that Trump has these business associations going back decades with kind of shady businessman who have ties to Russia. The question in there is, do those relationships risk posing undue influence on him going forward, possibly the bribery or some kind of coercion on policy? And all of these discussions about the meetings with the ambassador — and that’s mostly what we’re talking about, Amy, is that over and over again, various Trump aides or campaign people or Associates, what have you, met with the Russian ambassador to the United States. And that in and of itself is not suspect. People meet with ambassadors all the time. In fact, Mike McFaul, who was Obama’s ambassador to Russia, keeps saying that he’s — he’s a hawk on Russia, but he keeps saying we should not make it criminal to meet with Russians. What’s tricky here is Trump’s people have gotten questions over and over again, did you meet with X, Y, and Z? Did you meet with X, Y, and Z? And there is always, as there is with, with Ambass — Attorney General Sessions, there is always this obfuscation about it, and that raises questions about whether those meetings with Ambassador Kislyak were on the up and up or whether there were something more going on. With regards to sessions recusal, it’s a very narrow recusal. And there was some bad reporting on this yesterday. Everyone’s like, well, he’s recused on every thing that has to do with X, Y, and Z. You know what, actually, all he said is that he’s recusing from anything having to do with the elections. And so, for example, he has already been asked, would you recuse yourself from any ongoing investigation in Mike Flynn’s discussions with Russia in the transition period? And he didn’t answer that. And laying out what I just did, that there are these questions of business associations, there are these questions of quid pro quo to change our policy toward Ukraine, those aren’t election related per se unless they were quid pro quo to elect Trump in order to implement this Ukraine policy. And Sessions hasn’t recused from that. And those are, frankly, where some of the biggest smoke is. So, he hasn’t recused from that yet. He actually was asked twice during his confirmation process about ties to Russia. The one he addressed yesterday was a question in the hearing from Al Franken about whether he, as an election official, met with any Russians, which, as you pointed out, he actually did AMY GOODMAN: Marcy, let’s go to that clip from the confirmation hearing in January when, then Senator, Jeff Sessions was asked by Minnesota Senator Al Franken whether he knew of contact between Trump campaign officials and Russia’s government. REP. AL FRANKEN: If there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? SEN. JEFF SESSIONS: Senator Franken, I am not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign, and I didn’t have communications with the Russians. AMY GOODMAN: So as you were saying, Marcy, often it’s not the underlying act from which wouldn’t have been a terrible thing for him to say yes, but it’s the cover-up.